Daf 112 — Chullin 112 Summary

Chullin 112 – Good Morning Raboisai נותן טעם בר נותן טעם – Nat Bar Nat The Gemara continues the case of דגים שעלו בקערה : • Hot meat was previously in a bowl and gave meat flavor to the bowl • Hot fish was then placed in that bowl • The question is whether the fish may now be eaten with kutach – a dairy food This is called: • נותן טעם בר נותן טעם – Nat Bar Nat The meat gave flavor: • To the bowl The bowl then gave that flavor: • To the fish Machlokes Rav: • The fish may not be eaten with kutach Reason: • The fish received meat flavor Shmuel: • The fish may be eaten with kutach Reason: • It is Nat Bar Nat – a secondary transfer of flavor, which is too weak to prohibit the fish with dairy. Did Rav Explicitly Say Nat Bar Nat Is Asur? The Gemara says: • Rav's position was not stated explicitly • Rather, it was inferred from a story Rav visited: • His grandson, Rav Shimi bar Chiya Rav had: • A problem with his eye They prepared: • A strong eye ointment in a bowl Later, food was placed: • Into that same bowl Rav could taste: • The eye ointment in the food This appeared to prove: • Flavor can remain strong even after passing through the vessel Rejected The Gemara answers: • The eye ointment was exceptionally strong Therefore: • This case cannot prove the general rule of Nat Bar Nat. Rebbe Elazar Refuses Shmuel’s Fish Rebbe Elazar was sitting before: • Shmuel They brought: • Fish that had been in a meat bowl Shmuel: • Ate the fish with kutach Rebbe Elazar: • Refused to eat it Shmuel challenged him: • “Your Rebbe, Rav, ate this!” Meaning: • How can you be more stringent than your own Rebbe? Rebbe Elazar Asks Rav Rebbe Elazar returned to Rav and asked: • You taught that Nat Bar Nat is forbidden • Yet Shmuel says you ate this very fish with kutach! Rav responded: • חס ליה לזרעיה דאבא בר אבא • Chas v’shalom regarding Shmuel Rav said that Shmuel: • Would never knowingly give him something contrary to his opinion The Gemara therefore discusses how to understand: • Shmuel's statement that Rav had eaten it But Rav maintains: • His own position is that Nat Bar Nat is forbidden. Rav Huna & Rav Chiya – Two Disagreements Rav Huna and Rav Chiya were sitting: • On opposite sides of a bridge One of them was served: • Fish from a meat bowl • And ate it with kutach The other was served during his meal: • Figs and grapes • And ate them without making a new bracha Each criticised the other: • “Yasma” – orphan, i.e. lacking proper understanding Their Defences Regarding the fish: • He relied on the view permitting Nat Bar Nat Regarding the fruit: • He relied on Rebbe Chiya, who held that bread exempts foods eaten during the meal The Gemara ultimately rules: • דגים שעלו בקערה – fish placed in a meat bowl may be eaten with kutach Sharp Foods & Meat Knives A Radish Cut with a Meat Knife The Gemara now distinguishes a sharp food. A radish is cut with: • A meat knife Even though: • The radish is cold It may not be eaten: • With kutach Why? A radish is sharp. Its sharpness, together with: • The pressure of the knife Causes it to absorb: • Meat flavor from the knife Therefore: • This is more severe than ordinary Nat Bar Nat. Squash, Turnip & Beet Leaves Different foods are treated according to their sharpness. Kishos – squash: • Cut away the area that touched the knife • The remainder may be eaten Turnip leaves: • Are permitted Beet leaves: • Are forbidden because of their sharpness However, if the knife was first used on: • The milder turnip And then on: • The sharper food The Gemara permits it because: • The earlier cutting weakened/cleaned away the problematic flavor. Kutach Near Other Foods Kutach Next to Salt Rav Dimi told his household: • Do not place a container of kutach next to a container of salt Why? Some kutach might fall into: • The salt Later: • That salt may be used with meat Creating: • A Basar b’chalav problem. Kutach Next to Vinegar However, Rav Dimi permitted placing kutach next to: • Vinegar The Gemara asks: • Why is vinegar different from salt? Answer If kutach falls into salt: • The salt preserves it • The dairy remains present If kutach falls into vinegar: • It dissolves and does not remain as a significant piece Therefore: • The concern is different. מליח הרי הוא כרותח A Bird Falls into Kutach A small bird fell into: • A container of kutach The question: • Does the salt in the kutach cause the dairy to penetrate the meat? After all: • מליח הרי הוא כרותח • Salting is considered like boiling Answer Shmuel's rule applies only when something is salted so heavily: • That it is no longer normally edible because of the salt Ordinary salt used in food: • Does not create that level of halachic “heat” Therefore: • The bird is not automatically prohibited. Raw vs Roasted Meat The Gemara distinguishes: If the bird/meat is raw: • It does not readily absorb the kutach If it was already roasted: • The outside can absorb • The outer layer must be removed If the meat has: • Cracks Or is: • Heavily spiced Then: • The kutach can penetrate more deeply • The entire piece can become forbidden. מוהל – Red Juices from Meat Red Liquid from Meat The Gemara discusses meat placed: • On bread Red liquid comes out of the meat: • And enters the bread The question: • Is this liquid considered blood? The Gemara Distinguishes The concern is particularly where: • There was concentrated blood in the meat • The liquid penetrated through the bread • And it was thick Otherwise: • The red liquid is not necessarily treated as forbidden blood. Shmuel, Rav Huna & Rav Shmuel would: • Give the bread containing the problematic red liquid to his dog Rav Huna would: • Give it to his shamash The Gemara asks: If it is permitted: • Why does Rav Huna himself not eat it? Answer Rav Huna was: • An istanis – particularly sensitive His refusal to eat it therefore: • Does not prove that it was forbidden. Rav himself ate this liquid and referred to it as: • “The wine of meat” Showing that: • Red meat juice is not automatically considered blood. Collecting Fat Under Roasting Meat A Vessel Under the Meat The Gemara discusses placing a vessel: • Under roasting meat • To collect the fat dripping from it Problem Together with the fat: • Blood may also drip from the meat Therefore: • One cannot simply collect and eat the drippings. When Has the Blood Finished Coming Out? The Gemara discusses how to know when: • The blood has finished leaving the meat One sign mentioned: • When the meat stops producing smoke However, the Gemara questions whether: • The lower part may merely be burning • While the upper part has not yet finished. Separating the Fat from the Blood The Gemara gives a method: • Add a small amount of salt to the collected liquid This causes: • The blood to settle below • The fat to remain above The upper fat can then: • Be poured off carefully Important Only a small amount of salt is used. Too much salt: • Can thin out the blood • Causing it to mix with the fat And then: • The separation will not work properly. Blood Forced Out by Cutting The daf concludes by distinguishing between: • Liquid that naturally comes out of meat • Blood forced out from deeper inside by the pressure of cutting When a knife presses into the meat: • It can force actual blood out from within Therefore: • That blood can create a problem if it enters bread or other food. Key Chazarah • Nat Bar Nat is a secondary transfer of flavor: meat → bowl → fish. Rav prohibits eating the fish with dairy, while Shmuel permits it. • Rav's eye - ointment story does not prove the general rule because the ointment had an unusually strong flavor. • Rebbe Elazar refused Shmuel's fish because Rav held Nat Bar Nat was asur; the Gemara ultimately permits דגים שעלו בקערה with kutach. • A sharp radish cut with a meat knife is different because its sharpness and the pressure of the knife draw meat flavor into it. • The Gemara distinguishes between radish, squash, turnip and beet leaves according to their sharpness. • Kutach should not be kept next to salt because dairy may fall into the salt and later be used with meat; vinegar is different because the kutach dissolves. • מליח הרי הוא כרותח applies to very heavily salted food, not ordinary amounts of salt. • If roasted meat falls into kutach, the outer layer may need removal; cracks or spices can cause the kutach to penetrate throughout. • Red liquid coming from meat is not automatically blood; Rav called permitted meat juice “the wine of meat.” • Fat collected beneath roasting meat can contain blood; the Gemara discusses separating the blood from the fat with a small amount of salt. • The daf concludes by distinguishing ordinary meat juices from actual blood forced out from deeper inside the meat by cutting. 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